My current view is that while I want to promote openness and free speech that can really only work in a context where the person exercising their speech feels some necessity to use it responsibly and in an honest way.

On the internet that takes a lot of self control because the social norms of every day life don’t always apply because:

  • no one knows who you are
  • there is not a human being right in front of you that you might feel empathy for
  • there are no consequences to anything you say
  • not all posts are even by humans.

With all these taken together there is a compelling argument that speech may need to be more highly regulated on the internet than in face to face interactions. However there are people with legitimate ( beliefs and ideas honestly held that they wish to discuss ) views that I worry are going to be silenced and further marginalized.

This is bad for society because if people get dismissed or pushed aside it just breeds resentment, distrust, and more misunderstanding. I think as we start defederating and making decisions we are setting up a dangerous situation where it becomes potentially easy to defederate for the wrong reasons.

For instance “we think they are being racist” or “they are spreading misinformation” could have unintended consequences. Some religions and communities might have beliefs that appear to be pseudoscience or even discrimination. However if these are honestly held beliefs that they are willing to engage in civil discourse around I don’t think it’s right to actually block them.

This is likely just the beginning of a much larger discussion so what are your thoughts?—

  • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    41·
    1 year ago

    Actually, it is legal to be in the kkk, or organize as the kkk, assemble and spread those ideals. It is not legal for them to commit crimes like arson (cross burning) or murder (lynching), or conspiring to do those crimes, but simply existing, calling yourselves the kkk, wearing hoods, and saying racist shit is legal.

    In fact:

    that didn’t go away by trying to compromise with them!

    Actually, it kinda did. More accurately, it “went away” by convincing their potential converts (mostly their kids) that those old fashioned ideals are stupid and untrue, it was actually exactly through conversation and exposure to other cultures and their arts that the kkk saw their numbers dwindle to their meager membership levels of today.

    I’m not saying we need to follow that playbook, just because it worked once doesn’t mean it will again I suppose, but it was through discussion that their membership suffered, not through “bans” (or in this context making being in the kkk illegal. Since it isn’t illegal, they can’t have done that.)

    • Kecessa@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      31·
      1 year ago

      Actually, it kinda did. More accurately, it “went away” by convincing their potential converts (mostly their kids) that those old fashioned ideals are stupid and untrue, it was actually exactly through conversation and exposure to other cultures and their arts that the kkk saw their numbers dwindle to their meager membership levels of today.

      You should revise your history of the Klan because I don’t think infiltration by the FBI and being surrounded by armed first Nations and exchanging gunfire with them is considered “conversation and exposure to other cultures”.

      • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        1·
        1 year ago

        I believe that part is what one would consider “crime.”

        It is still, currently, not illegal to be in the kkk or be a racist POS no matter what either of us think about that. It still exists actually, remember 2016? David Duke, the leader of the thing, who is a real person who’s name and location is known, has not been arrested for being the leader of the thing, supported trump on the news? They do get arrested for crimes they commit all the time of course, since they often do commit crimes, but putting on a hood and saying stupid shit is simply not one of them.

        There have actually been three separate KKKs btw. The first one was actually made illegal, but that was declared unconstitutional in the 1880s. Making it illegal actually isn’t what killed it either, it continued on even as people got locked up, the leader disbanded it because it was becoming generalized violence and he “only” wanted racist violence, he basically said “look how they massacred my boy” and pulled the plug. And then the supreme court case said it was unconstitutional.

        The second one in the 20s had somehow convinced it’s members they were upstanding members of society, until their leader got convicted of rape and murder, and all the protestants they had recruited said “are we the baddies?” So they splintered and declined for years, until the organization literally got sold, and the IRS hit them with a lein for back taxes, and they shuttered their doors like a failed company.

        Then from there they tried to immediatly start a new one a few years later from what was left, but it was outed in superman comics and books, more splintering and low membership as a result, the civil rights movement won, more splintering and low membership, and now we’re at today, where historians attribute the decline to the Klan’s lack of competence in the use of the Internet, their history of violence, a proliferation of competing hate groups, and a decline in the number of young racist activists who are willing to join groups at all.

        Again, though the klan has been in decline steadily since like 1945, it is still legal, so “making it illegal” clearly isn’t what caused the decline. The decline was caused by Superman…

        …Or you know, that stuff I said earlier about exposure to other people, culture, and art making them not want to be racist against those people. Don’t minimize the role desegregation and the civil rights movement played in all of that, it wasn’t just the FBI (who killed MLK btw) prosecuting the criminals in the kkk, it was people of different races playing together on the playground, eating lunch together in the cafeteria, and becoming the next generation of kkk “recruits” that wanted fuck all to do with them since they already knew how dumb it was due to those experiences. Literally, people like MLK “won,” unless you count “winning” complete destruction, but I’d count 3,000 total members (down from 4-6 million peak) out of 334,967,580 total US population low enough to call a win, personally, and again that isn’t because the FBI made the klan “illegal.”

        • Kecessa@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          1·
          1 year ago

          I never said it was made illegal though l, I said measures were taken against them… Just like defederating or banning users from one instance doesn’t put them in an “internet prison” and doesn’t impose a rule at the “federal level”, they can still share their opinions elsewhere and we let them do so, we just tell them they’re not welcome in our town if that’s the kind of message they want to share.

          • ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
            1·
            1 year ago

            You implied that their decline was due to one incident in 1958 and the prowess of the FBI, at least, and I disagree. I, like the historians, attribute it to the KKK’s failings and the Civil Rights movement’s winnings.

            You were replying to (and “correcting me” on) a post claiming that “the kkk isn’t ilegal, but commiting crimes dressed as one or otherwise is illegal” so I figured you disagreed since you argued against it, my mistake, I guess your “correction” was misplaced.